Sallynoggin Church viewed from Glenageary Avenue.
We watched an interesting program last night on RTE on the state of the Irish Church. The program was well made and the participants were excellent. The only problem was that it lasted only an hour when three hours would not have been sufficient. As a result we got mostly soundbites when we might have hoped for more reflection and analysis.
All participants, lay and clergy, were agreed that the Church must change. And no doubt it will. The problem for many Catholics liberal and conservative is what will it turn into? There would appear to be two possibilities with very little possibility of a middle way.
The first would see the Church shrinking to a size perhaps less than 10 per cent of what it is now. Parishes would be amalgamated and would follow demographically what has happened to a certain extent the Catholic Church on the Continent and the Anglican Church in UK. It would become more conservative and hold to its exclusion of women in the priesthood and the admittance of gays as full members of the Church. It would be theologically tight and would not suffer the doubts of many individuals and religions. It would no longer be the religion of the masses except perhaps in some emerging countries of the third world.
The other possibility is that the Catholic Church effectively converts to Protestantism - it embraces a more democratic process, welcomes women as priests, Bishop's and perhaps as Popes. Why not? It dumps clericalism. It embraces gays. It comes to terms with birth control. It rediscovers Vatican 2 and turns its back on the last hundred years of theological conservatism.
It ends up where many Protestant denominations are today.
The question for people like me is ' why wait?' Over recent weeks I have been learning about the Society of Friends and they seem to be where I would wish the Catholic Church to arrive. It seems of little import whether people leave and wait for the Catholic Church to arrive, or stay with the Church and help it along the road. An equally reasoned argument can be made for both stances. At the end we can only obey our conscience as best informed.
I believe at the end of the day religion is not about numbers or power but about people and something we try to define as God as we stumble out of darkness towards the light in all humility.
Agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. The problem is the current hierarchy are desperately trying to cling on to their power. They don't realize they are going to lose it, in one of the two ways you describe above.
ReplyDeleteThanks Portlairge.. Actually I have great sympathy for the vast majority of priests who are try ing to do their best in bewildering circumstances. I count many as friends even though I am not sure if theirs is the best way forward. Tough on me but immeasurably tougher on them who have given their lives to what they honestly think is best. Shalom!
ReplyDeleteMy parents go to mass every day and I love their PP. He is a good man. I admire my parents faith because they seem more spiritual than caught up with the rules of the church even though they would not define it that way. In fact they and all of their friends prayed non stop that my fertility treatment would work (it did) even though IVF is against the RC church belief.
ReplyDeleteDelighted Portlsirge thast you had a good result with the IVF. The official line of the Catholic Church on family plsning is way out of touch on many issues and plain wrong quite often. I feel most priests turn a blind eye and secretly agree. All we can do is to inform ourselves and then follow our consciense. Sadly the official Church has become irrelevant in many areas of human sexuality and fails to connect with people for good or for bad most of the time.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprized there hasn't already been a break off church formed by catholics who are disgusted by the systematic abuse of the past, most seem to agree things have to change but they still sit around and wait for someone else (in Rome?) to change them. Would love to see the people take back their church...revert to a more celtic christianity, one where women are not second class citizens.
ReplyDeleteI agree Niamh entirely. Frankly I don't see Rome leading. I think the Church we grew up in with all the old certainties is gone forever. It's a bit scary in one sense, exciting in another. What is good will survive, the rest will disappear. The temporal edifices will crumble - not before their time. The Church of the future will be where two or three are gathered in His name - just how it started, funny that! The spiritual life is more likely to be an uncharted pilgrimage than a victory procession. Ciao!
ReplyDeleteInteresting discussion, and in fact, my current debate. I am trying to live spirituality, transcending church membership. Raised as a Catholic, turned to Episcopalian a few years ago in order to share with my husband the same church. I enjoyed the change. But now my husband decided to resign to church due to all the turmoil caused by the consecration of gay bishops.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I just ask God for guidance in my daily life, and try to follow christian principals and morals. Lord, help us to keep the balance!
Doris Plaster
Hi Doris, I think we are all on the same line. Anyway, at the end of the dya it is all about what we do rather than what we say! We had a lovely Friends Meeting this morning when we reflected on the words of Jesus 'to suffer little children to come to him'. A Friend recounted the story of an art teacher who asked a five year old girl what she would paint. 'God' replied the child. 'God is not easy to paint, no one knows that he looks like' explained the teacher. 'Well they will in five minutes' came the child's reply...
ReplyDeleteThought provoking Padraic, change certainly needs to happen.
ReplyDeleteI particularly love your last paragraph and agree wholeheartedly. Well said.
Thanks Brigid. History teaches us that time marches on inexorably and none of us can stand in its way - we just hope to nudge it a little! All kingdoms, be they political or religious, will change over time with the spirit of the times or disappear under the sands of time. In a sense, que sera, sera; what will be, will be.
ReplyDeleteEpiscopalians really are the breakaway catholic church- they don't follow Rome, their priests can marry, although I'm not sure of their stance on gay people.
ReplyDeleteHi Portlairge. I am no expert on Protestant churches. A good freind of mine in the States, born a Catholic, worshipped with the Episcopalean Chruch for many years before turning to the Unitarians - who would be theolgoically more liberal. My current comfort zone is the Quaker movement where the freedom in theolgical and liturgical matters seems to make sense to me and where my very serious doubts about fundamental Christian issues find a home and a welcome. Good luck in your search!
ReplyDeleteThanks Padraic. Must look into both.
ReplyDelete